The Future of Inclusive Communities

In this episode of Community Chats, David Renfrew, Senior Director of Real Estate and Project Management, and Jonathan Bradshaw, Director of Advocacy and Strategic Partnership at Community Living Toronto join Brad Saunders, CEO of Community Living Toronto, for a conversation on housing and the future of inclusive communities.
 
Together, they explore Community Living Toronto’s evolving approach to housing through inclusive vertical communities, and how partnerships with developers and the government are helping create more flexible, accessible, and person-centred living options across the city. They also discuss the realities of Ontario’s housing pressures, what it takes to build inclusive neighbourhoods at scale, and how policy innovation like the Power of Place green paper is shaping the next chapter of advocacy.
 
David and Jonathan also highlight both the complexity and the opportunity in rethinking how people with intellectual disabilities live, belong, and thrive in urban communities.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome back to Community Chats in our belonging series. Really glad you could join us again. Belonging begins with where you live. And inclusive vertical communities is an approach to housing that Community Living Toronto has been refining for the past 16 years. In this episode, I sit down with David and Jonathan from the Community Living team to talk about the work we're doing right now to build really inclusive vertical communities, places where people with intellectual and developmental disabilities can live with choice and independence, with the support they need and a deep sense of belonging. We talk about the partnerships and relationships that have shaped our work over the years, the green paper we launched last week, and how it's guiding our policy direction. The models we are learning from in our past in other parts of the world, especially around affordability and inclusion. And some exciting projects that we have this year ahead include our loss and development, which we which will be a major milestone for us in the years to come. We also talk about why this model matters. It's not just about housing solutions, but it's a way of creating communities where people feel connected and valued and where they belong. As loneliness is cited by many as one of the biggest troubles that they're dealing with, we believe that inclusive communities and communities where people are connected are more important than ever. We believe that this approach is one way of solving the housing and supportive housing crisis that Canada is facing. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's chat because belonging grows when we build it together. Okay, today we're going to talk about housing, and we've done a ton of work at Community Living Toronto around building more housing options across the city that are appropriate to what people want and how they want to live their lives, and also reflect how the city has changed in the last number of decades. So joining me today, I've got a couple of uh excellent community living Toronto staff that I'll uh introduce to you. And maybe uh David, Jonathan, welcome.

unknown 2:11

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Thank you. Nice to be here. Uh I'll I'll glad to have you. Um why don't we start by maybe just uh introducing yourselves and what your role is at Community Living Toronto, and maybe just a little bit about uh how you got involved in uh in community living, how you came to work first. David, I'll uh I'll start with you.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Uh thanks, Brad. Um I'm David Renfrey, I'm the senior director of real estate and and project management at Community Living Toronto. I've been with the association for for 26 or 27 years, uh, and really growing in my career here. I started out in information systems and then moved into more project management, which evolved into the real estate, which has been part of my portfolio now for over 10 years. Uh so really enjoy uh the opportunity to grow here and looking forward to today's conversation. Great, great. Jonathan, what about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Um Jonathan Bradshaw. I'm the director of advocacy and strategic partnership for community living Toronto. And I actually uh this is this month, uh a year that I've uh been working here, uh, which is great. And um, I had previously worked, and when I first met you, Brad, was when I was working for the provincial government, and I was there for 13 years as a political staffer uh in different roles, the last six of which was as the senior policy advisor for developmental services. Um, and then I'd worked in various different positions in the DS sector after leaving government. And uh, as I say, this is my year here, and uh very excited to be here and uh looking forward to where we're going with a lot of this, a lot of this work.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Good, good. So congratulations on the milestone. You've had an impactful year, and we've got a lot going on. So um uh as everybody that uh reads the news or watches TV uh knows, there's significant housing pressures, uh crisis, some would say, uh across Canada. Uh and cities around the country, uh, municipalities are struggling to deal with affordability issues. Uh we have got significant issues around homelessness uh in many of our cities. And developmental services and people living with disabilities are no exception. There's a shortage of housing that's suitable and appropriate, as well as affordable, and there are massive wait lists for people that are uh looking for waiting for a place to live. Estimates now are sort of 30,000 people are waiting for a place to live. Uh that doesn't mean that uh 30,000 people need a place to live tomorrow, but at some point in the next number of years, people will need uh places to live. At Community Living Toronto, we've taken an approach to housing that we've seen uh develop over the last 10, 12 years, and it's been quite fruitful. Uh we've we've named this inclusive vertical communities, and we've done a lot of uh work and had a lot of experience in this area, and we have hopes for the future around where this will lead us. But let's level set with everybody. So uh uh inclusive vertical communities. David, what is an inclusive vertical community?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

So an inclusive vertical community is um is uh a building where uh people live, but also there's an opportunity to get supports and services with within that living situation. It's a model that's evolved, um, as you said, over the past 10 or 12 years. We were first involved with um Toronto Community Housing at Dan Lecky back in 2010, and that was really new to us at Community Living Toronto. Traditionally, we've been in a group hall model, uh, which is more congregated setting. Uh, but this was an opportunity to look at something new. This was a location down by the waterfront and partnered with Francis and lots of conversations with Toronto Community Housing, how that could evolve. And that really set up the path for us moving forward over the past number of years. Uh, the model uh really is um providing housing with people within these apartments, but also providing supports as needed within the building as well. So some people may be more independent, they live separately, uh, but those other people may live more in a uh a more uh supported setting as well. So it just gives some flexibility, but it gives a lot of choice to the people we support as well, as far as the model, how they'd like to live and the level of independence they have.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

So describe how a typical vertical inclusive a vertical community would uh would work. How many units would we have? How many staff would kind of be there? Uh where are the units located in the building, what are the sizes? Uh how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

So this model has evolved over the years, uh, but typically we we look at depends on the size of the building. We really want to have a presence in the building, but really be part of that inclusive environment is what we really aim for. So we're looking for a few units within the building, and we tend to go for a scattered approach. So they're not all on the one floor. The the apartments are located throughout the building. We usually have staff located at one hub, so they may provide support to people at that apartment who needitional support, but then they're available for in the rest of the building if someone's in another apartment and they may need to just check in or they have some questions. That support is available throughout the building.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Okay. So over the last uh I I thought decade, but it's 16 years if we started in uh 2010. How many of these projects have we done and how many people are we supporting?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

So right now we have about um, I think it's around 114 apartments across the city with about 170 people um living in those apartments. Uh, but we're also this is a process that's ongoing. We've already got another couple of um developments in the work, uh, one in the west end Valhalla Village, and then one at the east end um uh Victoria Park. So um those are in in development right now, and so that'll bring additional units into the into the um into the stream as well as okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

So what one final question before I I go to Jonathan. So people that are moving into inclusive vertical communities into apartments on their own, and apartments with a few roommates and more staff support, they though uh we you mentioned that we um were using group homes for many years. What's happening to those homes when we when we no longer use them for those purposes?

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Right. So the um as people move out of the homes, and and this is all about choice, like what works for people, what level of independence they want. So some people uh want to move into the apartments, they like the location, the neighborhood they're that they're in, and um the building and the and the setup works well for a lot of people, and that's what they're choosing for. There's also some people that the vertical communities don't work for. Maybe they have um great accessibility needs, or maybe some behavioral issues, or just some reasons why that doesn't work. So we're looking at the homes that we have as far as repurposing. Um, who do they work better for? So it's part of our ongoing process of evaluating as we move forward.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Okay, excellent, excellent. Uh, Jonathan, to you, you've just done a bunch of work on a policy position that Community Toronto uh has just released this, well, I guess it was last week, and we're starting to talk about this because we do see this as an opportunity to scale this across the country that other organizations can take our ideas and use them. Um, based on your sort of involvement with the sector over the years and understanding of wait lists and people that are uh in need of housing and supportive housing, what is it about inclusive vertical communities and this model that uh appealed to you? And with your policy hat on, what what uh what what opportunities do you see for this kind of approach?

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Well, and I think that, and just to sort of expand, you know, as David said, there's the this isn't something that's for everyone, but I think it's something where we have an opportunity to really have truly inclusive neighborhoods and help to be get people into those neighborhoods. And it's something where, and having seen it in actual practice, it's something where you actually you you can see the difference this has on people's lives from a mental health perspective, from just feeling as if they own something, it's theirs. It's something that and I and I've seen people be excited just and it's something as simple as uh being excited about buying furniture and getting their own furniture for themselves, and it's their own place. So I think it's this thing that goes beyond just having a roof over your head, it's something that connects people to a place and it connects them to someplace where it's something they can call their own, which in a lot of cases and for a lot of people, they've never had that experience in their lives before. And so it's very it's it's moving actually to see this and to see the impact that this has had. And so I think it's something that uh is this gonna be something that we can do on the scale that we do it in everywhere across the country? No, but I is I do think it's something where we can take this model and this sort of relationship that we've been able to build with the city of Toronto, and that certainly is something where that can be replicated across the country and where you can get that sort of really great relationship, and you can have these maybe not in a in a in a 50-story or 30-story building, but in a smaller building, absolutely, where you can get these kind of the same kind of model and uh in different parts of the country.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Right. There are pictures from uh my I think the CN Tower was finished in 1976. Yeah. My grandmother bought me at the time, and I still have this, it's a long uh uh brochure that's sort of to long and narrow, sort of with the picture of the CN Tower on it. Uh, and it was in the uh an insert in the Toronto Star, sort of showing off the building and how they built it and all that kind of thing. And what struck me was in the background of that picture, so this is, you know, what is that, 45 years ago, for 50 years ago? 50 years ago, geez. Um, there's no apart, like there's very few apartment buildings. Uh it's uh factories, uh, there's no skydome uh or Rogers Center, there's it it's a very flat place. And the CN Tower was built to transmit television signals, right? So and there was nothing in the way. You fast forward to a picture now, and outside the window behind me, all you can see is apartment buildings. So this move towards inclusive vertical communities and moving out of uh homes, which was very representative of what Toronto was like 50 years ago, into apartments is sort of a broader move to reflect the changing demographic and realities of our of our city. Um David, with that, what have some of the challenges been uh with inclusive vertical communities and and getting involved with developers who are doing these big ambitious projects and and that what are some of the things that we've that have been challenges that we've uh problem solved and resolved, uh worked out along the way? Anything come to mind?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah, maybe a maybe a few. Um it's a learning curve for community living in Toronto for our staff, but it's also a learning curve for the developers. It was new and when we started in 2010, like we'd internal learnings, like how would this work and what would the model be in these buildings? And and we worked through that and learned with with Dan Lecky Way. Um Toronto Community Housing, um, a little bit more experience supporting agencies within their buildings. I think that was an advantage there. Uh, but then we took that and and the city moved through this program in the the 2010s with open doors, um, where they were they were trying to encourage development of land that city owned. Uh so the one of the calls was for developers to come in, but they also had to partner with agencies. So we took that opportunity to reach out to developers and do that partnership and really work with them um in the in the application bit with the city as a as a nonprofit partner agency. And we did that a number of times, and sometimes we're successful and sometimes we weren't. But the times that we're successful, uh, we worked with the developer and really built that relationship. And I think that really speaks to some of our learning um and how we've improved over the years. We really worked closely with one uh company, Mahogany Management, with Tim Need as the principal there. Uh and that was really they brought we worked with them on uh the Madison view. Um, and again, great learning experience, and and we built that up again, our internal capacity and then Tim's understanding of what we want as community live in Toronto, but we helped bring other agencies involved as well into the development. And now we've done uh Birch Mount Green with the same developer and now partner with him in Victoria Village. So really building um our knowledge and sharing that with uh developers and and other agencies, I think we've really helped uh share our learnings there.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah. And most of the project that we've done have been focused on uh affordable housing. Uh, and there's funding available from the city of Toronto uh and from the federal government to create affordable housing. One of the initiatives that we've come up with, and we've got a couple things that I want to talk about. One is our Lawson project that we're doing in Scarborough. The other is, Jonathan, you've been working on a green paper, and I want you to explain to people what a green paper is. But the green paper is called the Power of Place. Uh and our thinking is that beyond just affordable housing, one of the to reflect the changing uh realities of cities across the country, that uh we need some rule changes to be able to scale this up and broaden it to make more housing, affordable housing, available in projects that are going ahead and working with private developers. Do you want to talk in a nutshell? First of all, start with what a green paper is, and then uh what what the what your what the uh policy position that we're putting forward is.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Yeah, so a green paper, it's uh it's a traditional uh term uh that's used uh in um a number of different jurisdictions. So it's used in usually uh Westminster-style parliamentary democracies, and the European Commission uses it.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Of which we are one.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Of which we are one, of which we are one, yeah, absolutely. And so what it is is as opposed to a white paper, which is a white paper is a committed piece of government-backed legislation or policy. Um this is um this a green paper is a proposed piece of policy. So it's something that is a suggested or uh possible way of moving forward uh through policy. So that's what a green paper is in a nutshell uh of what that is. And so and I just really like the term and it comes from uh the fact that it they used to be printed on green pieces of paper. So that's sort of where it comes from. So uh I just like I like the term. So it's a policy process. So I it's a policy proposal. Um, and really what it comes from is the fact that um, as we've discussed, we've had a great deal of success with this inclusive vertical community model. Um, one of the key issues though that we have is that we often get sort of brought in at sort of further down the line with some of this, uh, some of this piece. So it's something that's already things have already been decided, things have already moved forward, and we're still.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

As developments are starting, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:25

As developments are starting, and we get brought in when there's sort of a piece around, oh, we have some units available and and that sort of thing, based on, as you mentioned, Brad, some uh rules around there needs to be certain uh percentages of affordable housing and that in these developments. And so we get approached through that. Um, so looking at it as a possibility of us being more involved from the beginning, right now it's there is no existing uh ability uh through CMHC backed mortgages uh for a single organization to purchase multiple units in a condominium building specifically. Uh and if whereas they do have a similar uh program where you can uh buy multiple units with one mortgage in other types of buildings, just not a condominium building. But even when that's allowed, it needs to be a single floor or it needs to be a full building. And so obviously, for what we're trying to promote in terms of our inclusive vertical communities, it's not very inclusive if there's a single floor of people uh who are just people with developmental disabilities. And so it sort of goes against what we're trying to do with the model. So the paper is basically proposing now again, as you mentioned, Brad, this is something where we've gone very quickly in this province, in this country, where 40 years ago everything being built was a detached house and it were uh in neighborhoods, and then in about about 20 years ago, we very quickly moved to everything that was being built was uh condominiums. And even with the fact that now, and everyone's talking about in Vancouver and Toronto, there's a downturn in the condominium market, which is true, it still represents a massive amount of housing that exists because it there was so much of it was being built, and so much of it is there. And so this is something where historically it's just something that has been never touched on because it was never needed 40, 50 years ago. Um and so it it just it didn't, the policy didn't keep up with what was happening and how rapidly our housing changed. And so, really, it's an opportunity for us to really look at how different ways that that not-for-profits in particular would be able to get involved in housing um at a much reduced cost um to be involved there. So that's really what the focus of the paper is, um, and really what the paper is proposing. And the paper is meant to be kind of a uh conversation starter with governments, with other housing providers around how can we look at this and be a bit more innovative with the sort of world that we have uh uh around us right now, and uh also how can we try and get more not-for-profits involved in housing at a lower cost.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Right, right. Excellent. Um so this became really relevant for us and this um policy change when we started looking at the project we're doing in Scarborough at our Lawson site. So, David, I we've we've talked about this um in the past, but I don't maybe you could give us a bit of an update on uh our law what what our Lawson project is and what the status the status of it uh where the status sits.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Sure. Uh yeah, Lawson is a site that community in Toronto has had a presence on for decades as a building we owned with TDSB. Um and then we took ownership of the building in in 2009. Uh we realized it wasn't a property or a location that really met our vision or our needs. It was old institutional. So we started looking at some opportunities to to redevelop that property, and and we had needs at Community Living Toronto for better office space, better program space, but we also saw an opportunity there uh to meet a big need of the association and people we support, but also the general community, and that's for housing. Uh so it took a couple of uh attempts, but in 2001 we did uh an RFP and um to redevelop the property and Tridell, um one of the leader.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Sorry, it wasn't 2000, it wasn't 2001.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Oh, 2021. 2021. Okay. Okay. 2021. I know time goes fast, but that that's uh yeah, 2021. Uh we did an RFP and Tridell, one of the most uh successful, uh well regarded developers in the province, uh, was a successful bidder. Um so we worked with them for a number of years just figuring out um what we could do within the property and and really Up with a plan to redevelop it. The plan that we've moved forward with is to take the property and we divide it up into five lots. And there'll be five towers on the property. Four um condo buildings, market condo buildings that will be sold and by Tridell, but also one building that will be owned by Community Living Toronto that will be an affordable rental building with 286 units, plus a large podium that will have um office, uh respite and program space, but also other um amenities for the for the building and for the broader community, some caught a coffee shop and also some community space, the all the buildings oriented around uh public park. So um we're very excited about this project and moving forward with Tridell.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

And this is in Scarborough, it's sort of McCallan and Ellesmere, uh, and it's 4.7 acres or so. Um, why is it taking so long? 2021 to 2020 to 26. What's why does it take so long?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Well, as we're learning, um, there's a lot involved with planning a community. We're not just building, it's not just a single building, we're building a community. Um, so we had to take the property, figure out how it would be subdivided, and then go through all these application processes with the city, which takes a considerable amount of time. But we've moved forward at a steady progress. Um now we're um at the point now where the the rezoning has been approved, uh, the plan of subdivision as well. So we're now moving into the design phase of our own building, uh, which is very exciting because it's a lot of technical um work in the background. But over the summer we're starting stakeholder engagement sessions to really look at detailed design work for the building. And part of our um approach is to really look at co-creation, bringing in our various stakeholders, families, individuals, staff, the board members uh to really influence and help us shape this building that will hopefully work for everybody. Um, it's a long process. So we're doing this over the summer, um, but then moving into the fall, uh, we we start our site plan application, which is another process you go through with the city um to really look at how the building integrates into the rest of the environment. And then we go into building permit phase, and then we start construction. Um, so we're targeting right now construction to start uh late 2020 2028, 2029. Um, and from what I understand, the construction wind is about 39 months. So 2031, uh, we should have our building uh ready ready to occupy.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Okay. That's like that's it, it it has been a long time, and that when you explain it, there's a lot to it. Um, but there's certainly some opportunities to editorialize a bit. There's an opportunities for this whole process to be sped up. It's uh it's a lot of a lot of work and a significant investment of both time and money. The our rental building will be 29 stories tall, so it could be 290-ish units, depending on how we design things. How do those units break down? Like what who will be what makes up the people that will be uh will be living there?

SPEAKER_01 25:13

So as a mixture, it's uh a mixture of affordable and and market rental in the building, so about 50-50 split. The affordable side depends on which program you're going for, but so affordability has different levels. Uh, but uh from our perspective, though it'll be open to the public to rent uh units within the building. There'll be opportunities for our agency, other agencies to rent units in the building, and we will provide um opportunities for people we support in community living in Toronto um to rent units within the building as well. Um so it's a very mixed um and inclusive building.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Okay. Of the of the affordable units and of the people with disabilities and lived experience that will be living there, what's the ratios in that? If we what's what are we what's our thinking now?

SPEAKER_01 25:57

So we're we're our goal is about 20% of the units for people um supported by Community Living Toronto are partner agencies, and and that's the target we're we're setting.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Okay. And 20%, we sort of landed on that. We don't know if that's the perfect balance between um uh to be an inclusive uh building. We're trying to balance inclusion uh where you know we're we're there's uh lots of different types of types of people and lots of different people living in the uh uh in the apartment with mixed tenure and mixed mixed uh life experiences, along with impact. We're just aware that there are thousands and thousands of people waiting for supportive housing, and we wanted to make sure that we got we get that balance right. So we don't know that 20% is the magic number, but it's uh it's a number a number that we're comfortable with here. Um the the the units the Tridell is also building four condominium units over the next number of years. Those will roll out in phases. Do you want to talk about our inclusive vertical communities uh and how they'll uh how that will work? Uh Jonathan, maybe I'll I'll throw that to you and how that ties into your your uh policy paper.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Absolutely. And I and just to start off there, I think that uh right now, as I mentioned, the condominium market, you know, you get the looks of when you say we'll be building four condominium towers, uh, you get the looks of why. Um but I actually I was just at uh a summit, a housing summit yesterday, and there were even people there saying that in about five, six years' time, we're going to have more need for more housing and more different types of housing. And so there will be again a need for this in by 2031 when building, you know, when we're gonna have the first, you know, think first pieces of our project done. So I think it it's it's there that um that you know that's why that's needed in all different types of housing. And we also, so I believe uh in the four towers that are being built there, there'll be approximately 2,000, so just under 2,000 units spread across those four buildings. And of those, we would have up to 20, the opportunity to purchase up to 20% of those units in those four towers. And obviously, um that will be about 400 units. And so we would that was something we would want to have partnerships with people, different groups that we'd want to have involved in there, um, which we've had great success with in the past. Um, but it's also something where the paper comes in around it would be um it would be something where it would be much cheaper for us to get involved in that if we had the change of having the opportunity for a single mortgage on multiple units uh spread across the thing. I think it's something that's still feasible and possible to do, but it would be much easier if we had that change.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Yeah. Now you've done in in developing your policy paper, this we just didn't come up with this completely on our own. Uh there are other jurisdictions that have similar types of approaches. Do you can you talk about a couple?

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Absolutely. Uh so in doing the policy paper, uh, I did a bit of a jurisdictional scan uh and looked at different organizations, uh, different uh countries, um, and what is feasible uh in those countries. So uh primarily I looked at the European Union, uh, I looked at the United Kingdom, I looked at Australia, and I looked at the United States. Um, and now I should say, because you know there's obviously different rules in these places, in these jurisdictions, um, there's different ways of doing things. But what I was able to find was there are some approaches that are in in these places that offer very similar um uh circumstances. So uh in the UK, um there are housing associations that routinely hold multiple units that are scattered throughout privately developed mixed-use buildings, um, and they they treat them as sort of a single portfolio, uh, which is very similar to what we're proposing. So looking at it as a single portfolio as scattered around one building as opposed to um, you know, this is one unit, this is one unit. Um, and uh there are organizations that lead that that have partnered with private developers in the way that we're doing with um with Tridell. Uh so uh the Newland Housing Trust is one, um, Dimensions UK is one. Uh so uh there are a few uh options there that have done very similar things, um, which also leads to lowering costs and uh sort of uh making sure that helping to sort of provide inclusive housing at scale uh without clustering people with developmental disabilities in you know one area. Um in the European Union, um the European Association of Service Providers for Persons with Disabilities, um, so they've looked at cases across Europe in Finland, in Spain, Slovakia, uh Greece, and um one other country that I'm forgetting right now, uh, where they do something very similar, where they acquire multiple units across buildings and they finance them through arrangements um with organizations that support people with disabilities. Um yeah, sorry go ahead. Uh go ahead, no, go ahead. Sorry, we keep going on. So this isn't something that is entirely unique. Again, I have to caution that you know, not it's not apples to apples comparison because of the different jurisdictions, but it is something that um that that is has been done in a similar way in other in other jurisdictions. And I think it's something, and and for example, in the US, Freddie Mac um offers something very similar in terms of the backed mortgage that we're asking for from CMHC. Um so I do think that there are so it's it's a well-worn trail.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

It's a well-worn trail of that um because there's so many examples across the province of how not to do affordable or supportive housing. So we feel pretty excited that we found a model that works, that is inclusive and that we think can be scaled. So there's we're going to be advocating quite aggressively with this uh over the next uh well until we get until we see some progress. So um just as we wrap up, um, where do people go for more information? First, David, on Lawson. Where do people find out more? And we've got a mailing list as well that we're that we have as that people can sign up for.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

That's right. If uh people go to our website, um cltoronto.ca, uh there's a link on there to a page for Lawson. Uh they've got some information, latest information on the development, and there's a um a link in there to subscribe to get a mailing list as well. So that's the best way to keep updated on the project.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Great. And Jonathan on the policy paper?

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, and actually, if you go to the say and to the same world websites and on the left-hand side, where there's the Lawson drop uh drop down on the left hand side, if you click on that, you'll see where it'll say the power of place. And uh there is where you'll find the full policy paper, the full green paper, as well as the an executive summary. So if you don't want to read all 24 pages of the policy proposal, uh you can't imagine anybody not wanting to read the entire 24 pages. But no, why would you not want to? Um, you know, unless you're a policy wonk like me, but uh which I love doing that. Um but there's also an executive summary there, uh, which gives sort of an abridged version or Cole's notes version of the of the paper, as well as the news release there. So just a bit more information and um bit more detail. So good.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

And we've covered a lot of ground really quickly today. Uh, if people are wanting more information, more detailed information around how the model works uh for us at Community Toronto, what the impacts have been and the repurposed housing, or uh the the mechanics of how the this power of pace polic power of place policy paper uh would work and we see that being implemented. Please reach out. We're happy to chat more and uh and give more information. We we love talking about this model because we've seen the impact that it's had. Um thank you both. Appreciate uh appreciate your passion and dedication for this and the time that you've given today.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Thank you so much. It's wonderful. It's always great to talk about this.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yes, I agree. Thank you. Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

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