A Better Way Forward

In the last episode of our six-part Belonging series, Brendon Pooran, lawyer and founder of Pooran Law, joins Brad Saunders, CEO of Community Living Toronto, for a conversation about choice, independence, and the everyday experiences of people with intellectual disabilities and their families.

From recent developments around Medical Assistance in Dying (MAID) to changes to the Disability Tax Credit and Canada Disability Benefit, Brendon shares insights into changes in disability law and what they mean in practice. The conversation also explores supported decision-making, including what it means and how it can help give people greater choice and control in their own lives.

At its heart, this is a conversation about the support and opportunities people need to live the lives they choose, with practical insights to help people and families better understand these changes.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hi, it's Brad Saunders. I'm the CEO at Community Living Toronto. And welcome back to Community Chats. Today Brendan Poorin is back, and we have a wide-ranging conversation on a number of issues, including updates on MAID, the medical assistance in dying, particularly as it applies to individuals with an intellectual disability, some of the risks there. Talk about the disability tax credit, changes that have been made to make that easier to access and maintain. We also touch on the Canada Disability Benefit as well as supported decision making. Brenda and I cover a lot of ground, take a bit of time, but I'm sure whether you're a family member or a self-advocate, a professional, or simply interested in building a more inclusive society, really think this conversation will help give you some good perspective and practical insights. So grab a coffee or a bottle of water, settle in, and let's chat because belonging begins with listening. Brendan, thanks for joining us today. Good to have you back, I think for the third time.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, I think it's number three.

unknown 1:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Um you're you're you're always a popular guest, and there's always lots to talk about. So uh so we'll get to that. But first of all, how's the summer going? We're doing this in July and sort of halfway through. How are things?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, summer's going okay. It's full it's flying by. I mean, I think we say that every year, but I I do think that uh that that time is uh is is is going by even quicker this summer. So hard to believe that July is almost over, but uh but can't complain. Weather's been great.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah, weather's been slow to come, but weather's been excellent. So that's uh that's uh good to be part of. Um dive right in here. So I thought we a few things we're gonna talk about, but um, and if feels because there's been progress on a couple of things that are I think are noteworthy, which is why we were really keen to have you back. Um first thing we'll start with is uh MAID, which is medical assistance and dying. And we've talked about this a couple times on the podcasts and um uh get lots of questions uh from people and and I hear a lot of feedback that that's very helpful because it is an issue, obviously very sensitive. Um, it's still um being it's still evolving, particularly track two. Uh, and then uh it has a lot of uh importance to our sector because of the risks that are there for people um that we support or people living with an intellectual disability and and uh and others. So there was a big development towards the end of the last session of the House of Commons of Parliament, where a recommendation was made to not fully implement the track two recommendations that were being done. What happened? So I uh maybe I'll I'll you know what? Maybe we should back, maybe we should just back up one step. So we I I skipped over a whole lot there. So maybe start with what is first of all, MAID has two tracks. What is track one? What is track two?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah, the the main difference between track one and track two is that with track one, the individual applying for MAID is doing so based on having uh a condition that uh will result in a reasonably foreseeable death. Uh under track two, that requirement of the reasoning reasonable foreseeable death does not have to be there, right? So we're talking about someone who has a um essentially an irremedial, i irremediable uh condition, but that condition is not necessarily leading them to a reasonably reasonably foreseeable death. So there's there's that piece. There's there's track two, and there's currently sort of a a constitutional challenge associated with chat uh with track two, but there's also the status of you know where the the federal government is at with mental illness as the sole underlying medical condition to um and to request made.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Okay. So just so we're clear, so track one would be you receive a uh cancer diagnosis, you're given a period of time, uh life expectancy, you can arrange with a physician if that or uh that that you that you want to um end your life with medical assistance, and that is a that's that's the bulk that's most people that go use MAID uh have uh have a are on that track one where it's a diagnosis that you've got you're you're you're you're not gonna recover and you you choose to do medically assistance and medical assistance and dying instead of going uh you know, so going through whatever that might in the world.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Where you're where your natural death is then reasonably foreseeable.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Okay. Uh, and then track two, and the the history of track two is so this could be chronic conditions, chronic pain, uh, ongoing um uh conditions that people can't live, think can't live with, don't want to live with, or whether it was Yeah, they're saying that they yeah, they don't want to live with uh with with you know whatever the manifestations are of their of their condition, whatever the symptoms are of their condition.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

And yeah, I mean you cited some good examples there. Chronic pain is is uh a common example that that we hear from people who are saying, look, my death isn't I don't have a uh I have a uh uh a grievous and irremediable um condition, but not one that would lead me to at least now to a reasonably foreseeable death. But when I'm experiencing these symptoms, when I'm experiencing some of these manifestations, they're intolerable and um therefore they're wanting to apply for mate.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Okay. And in the disability community, the concern is that that would be so broadly applied that people may uh make choices that are not are not fully informed, or that other people may influence that decision. There's just a lot of risk there that people are uh in in the disability community are very uncomfortable with, not just disability, but in mental health um as well, that people are not comfortable with.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, I think there are a few a few factors or a few considerations being cited, uh and you've picked up on a few of them. One is undue influence, right? Like, is this something that the person actually wants or or wants, or are they are there being are they being unduly influenced by um so-called trusted family members or friends or or other third parties? And and unfortunately, that is a real thing. Like we have worked on cases um involving made at our office where there have been um you know allegations that this wasn't really the person's choice, but there they may have been unduly influenced by family members who uh who had ulterior motives. Um there's the um there's the informed consent piece, right? So making absolutely certain that the person requesting MAID is providing that informed consent. And so, you know, sort of unpacking the whole area of consent capacity and legal decision making within the healthcare context. And we have fairly robust legislation that that governs informed consent. So um that's a concern. There's also the you know, uh a concern that's that's often raised around um people requiring supports as a result of their disability, right? So um, and and and this was even a factor that was cited in the report delivered by the joint committee on uh medical assistance and dying here, uh, with respect to people with um mental illness is the sole underlying condition. Like, are there adequate supports and services in place for people, right? Or are people opting for MAID due to there being a lack of supports? And if there were the right level of supports in place, perhaps MAID wouldn't be pursued in some situations. So, yeah, a number of factors that are being raised by the community.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, we we've um one of the examples that we've seen or impacts that we've seen lately in the housing that we've done in the last number of years is how dramatically uh a person's life can change by their living circumstance, their living situation changing. Uh, and we've had people on our podcast and with our influencers across community living Toronto talking about uh the impact that just moving from a place where that was, you know, a basement apartment in not a great neighborhood with neighbors that weren't the best or they were scared to be in their communities to a place that was with adequate support in a different building that had people they knew, um, that sense of community and that changed their perspective. Now, I don't know that anybody was pursuing MAID, but it did you did see a dramatic increase in people's uh level of happiness, level of satisfaction, reduced reliance on the healthcare system. So I guess this is just sort of extending that further. Are there circumstances where a person would, because the supports they don't have, they would choose to say, I don't want to do this, I don't want to live anymore. And that, I think we could all agree, is not something we as Canadians would would get behind.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Should not be a reason to pursue made. And we've heard numerous stories um in the media over the years about people um requesting supports on numerous occasions due to their underlying condition and just not being able to access um uh the right types of supports. And and you again alluded to to one that most is most commonly referred to, and that that that's housing, right? Just inaccurate, inaccurate housing supports for folks, uh for people generally, right? For people living below the poverty line. But then when when there is some sort of uh condition or uh you know disability involved here, being able to be accommodated within the housing space, being able to live comfortably, being able to uh uh not be as socially isolated as they otherwise would be. Yeah. Um that being said, it is a factor for pursuing MAID.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Okay. One thing just to clarify, um, I think sometimes the medical community can get painted with a broad brush around how they deal with people with disabilities when it comes to uh uh significant conditions, uh end-of-life care or just really serious conditions that are requiring uh time. I mean, there's lots of stories out there where people have been told, you know, quite harsh things about well, you have a disability. Do you really want to continue living? And I've certainly uh been part of those conversations with doctors themselves and people will advocate against that. However, you know, the the that is not the universal experience of people. And we've worked with a lot of uh doctors, nurses, hospitals, where they do everything they can to support a person, try and bring them back to health. Uh, and if a decision is made to end uh, you know, if someone's on life support, that that decision is arrived at reluctantly and carefully. Um, so it's I I don't know that we can put everybody in a basket and say, oh, because you have a disability, you're just fundamentally going to be in this track or you're gonna be recommended that, because that's not not been certainly my experience.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

No, I agree with you. You know, we we we definitely cannot generalize about the medical community. And I think uh, like you, I think I've experienced both ends of the spectrum when it when it's come to supporting people. But uh at the end of the day, I mean, the medical community does act as a gatekeeper for a number of sort of fundamental um uh fundamental supports available to people with disabilities, right? Like not only within the MAID context. Like obviously they're instrumental with MAID, but uh they act as gatekeepers uh when it comes to sort of accessing the disability tax credit, right? Accessing the Canada Disability Benefit, accessing uh provincial social assistance supports uh quite often. So it's it's it's very important, I would say, to to have the medical community on board, to um partner with the medical community as much as possible, uh, to educate, to raise awareness, to um to to really, like I said, treat them as a partner um within the process.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Okay. So the next just to go back then, the next steps are so this recommendation was made to Parliament by the committee studying it at the end of the last session. Where does it go from here?

SPEAKER_01 12:56

So that yeah, and that that to be clear, that that's on the expansion of May to include um mental illness.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

So one is set and clear, and it's it's remaining. It's retract two stuff and so a bit of a nuance, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:13

So so expansion of May to include um uh mental illness as the sole underlying condition. So I would I would treat that as sort of one outstanding matter, and that that's that's the main um sort of uh consideration right now before the joint committee. I would say that and and advanced directives. Um the committee in their latest report, which I believe was issued last month, essentially said that you know accessing made based on um mental illness as a sole underlying condition should be excluded. Like that should not be considered. So that's not a binding decision by any means, but uh that recommendation has now come out. Um we were expecting, I think, uh mental illness as a sole underlying condition to be implemented come March of 2027. Okay. So we're not sure based on this recommendation where things stand with respect to mental illness.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

And then we we use the term mental illness, um, but it's not clear in the from the disability context whether that includes intellectual disability or how broadly what that category uh encompasses. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

I think it's fair to say. I mean, m my interpretation, and and don't hold me to this, would be that that I I I don't know that it would necessarily include someone with solely an intellectual disability, right? Like maybe if there's a dual diagnosis involved or something along those lines. But I don't think the intent is to include um people with intellectual disabilities generally. Um, I think we're talking about more sort of mental health related um conditions.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Okay. So more to come on that.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yeah. And so there's there's the the mental illness piece, and then there's there's the track two. There's uh a constitutional challenge um that's been initiated in in uh the Ontario courts, of which um Inclusion Canada is actually part of the um the coalition that is uh essentially um suggesting that track two is unconstitutional, right? That the track two should be should be struck down, and uh litigation is in its early stages. So we'll have to wait to see how how things sort of transpire there. But that's sort of the I would say the second update um that I'd have to share with you related to MAID.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah. That is helpful. More to more to come. Yeah. Um disability tax credit and eligibility. Uh big changes coming there with the last, was it the budget or the or the spring economic statement? Yeah. Yeah. So uh what's uh what's new?

SPEAKER_01 16:10

I would say the most significant change that that impacts our community or people with intellectual disabilities would be uh changes introduced to lifelong certifications for qualifying individuals. So uh historically, um some people applying for the disability tax credit who had a lifelong condition, uh, let's say some form of intellectual disability uh would apply, they'd be successful, but with their approval letter came a sort of an expiry date, right? So the disability tax credit is good for three years or five years. So you've got to reapply at 18 because something magically changes at age 18. Um that's no longer the case for certain conditions, uh, including uh including conditions related to intellectual disability. So a lifelong certification's in place. Um, qualified practitioner just needs to convey the diagnosis. They don't necessarily have to explain how the diagnosis has an impact on the person's life. Um, and then the individual would not need to re-apply again, which is a huge win for many, many people. It's it's a it's it's a stressful process to kind of go through applying for the DGC and then having to diarize it to reapply in three years or five years and track down a qualified uh practitioner and put all of your paperwork together. If you miss the deadline, then all of the benefits associated with the disability tax credit, like the refundable tax credits, the RDSP, all of those pieces are sort of put on hold. So this was, I think this was big. This is uh very much welcomed, I think, by the community. Um so there was that. The the list of qualified practitioners who could sort of sign off on the DTC was was expanded a little bit. I think uh podiatrists are now included. Um, and uh also the the the list of of the types of disabilities that could be um approved by physiotherapists and speech language pathologists and OTs has been broadened. Right. Like that's been expanded, so that's making life a little bit easier. Um, and then the third piece is that for people who are under the PGT's guardianship of property, uh the PGT can now certify folks, right? So they don't have to go out and get a medical practitioner to sign off on the applications.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Now that was something that I hadn't caught in the year when this sort of initially came out. Um so how how any do any clear is very clear on how that would how that would work?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

I I I don't know how they're operationalizing this. I guess the thinking behind it was that the individual went through a formal capacity assessment in order for the the PGT to become involved, and therefore there's enough information in that capacity assessment that would be analogous to or satisfy the requirements of the DDC. So why put them through that process again with a qualified medical practitioner?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Okay. So this is this is good. We um uh so the form, I heard a lot about this uh number a month ago when it was first sort of announced, right? The form was 14 or 18 pages long, had to be done by a doctor. Yeah, doctors did not like doing it, yeah. Um, but also, you know, it sometimes charged for it or but then didn't like doing that either because the person often didn't have the money for it. So it was a real uh hassle to go through.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

I think things have been improved. I'll say the one you know major issue that is still out there that uh really does impact people with intellectual disabilities is the the legal representative legal representation piece. Okay, right. So if the CRAE doesn't think that you are capable of applying for the DTC yourself, there are no real mechanisms in place for a trusted family member or friend to assist with that. So we still get calls regularly from, let's say, parents who are just trying to, you know, they're their their daughter turned 18, she now has to reapply, they're trying to reapply for her. The DTC has been in place for 15 years, and they're being told they can't do it. They can't do it without pursuing legal guardianship because they don't have the legal authority to act on their daughter's behalf. So it's that's still a significant problem.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

So that let's come to that in a sec. So there's because that uh sort of gets into supportive decision making and some of the other pieces that you've certainly been advocating for for many years. The the disability tax credit and that all those expansions that is in effect now, that did pass. So that those beliefs that are now in effect. Yeah. They are they are working. I will say government, I would agree. I think government is quite proud of this change. It's it's a small but not insignificant uh change. We did a uh press conference about a month ago with Secretary of State Wayne Long and our MP uh Danielle Martin, who is a physician herself. And when she was speaking at this, uh talked about how much of a uh an unnecessary step she felt it was. And I'm can't speak on her behalf, but that was sort of my impression that long forms, lots of time for a condition that wasn't going to change. So uh I'm a big believer in giving uh you know support props where where where deserved. And this was a change that is making things uh easier for some people, recognizing it's it's not uh it's not everything.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Definitely a a step forward. And and I would say um you know, formalized uh a practice that had historically been in place uh with the CRA. I would say predating the RDSP in 2008. We we used to see a lot more of these sort of lifelong certificates issued. Um and and that that wasn't happening very much over the last 10 or 15 years. So definitely I agree with you. Like

SPEAKER_00 22:00

it it it's great to see this uh formalized it's gonna make life easier for a lot of people good um we'll come back to supported decision making in that in a minute but i i just wanted the other piece that's sort of along these lines is the disability uh the candidate disability benefit benefit uh and we've talked about this as a payment is it it's 150 bucks or 200 200 up to 200 up to 200 a month um it was initially talked about years ago when it was started as being uh a mechanism to lift people with disabilities living to move them out of poverty so in Ontario if you're on ODSP which is $1400 a month or so it tends to be in a city like Toronto less than half of half the rate of poverty what you're receiving as income. So many people just by having a disability if that was their only source of income they were living in poverty. That the Canada disability benefit did not meet expectations it's quite a bit lower than uh than was needed. Um and but we it it it's there there was sort of hinting that it's the $200 isn't set forever it could change over time. There's advocacy work that people could do there. How's how's it going since it rolled out and and what um what what's your experience been or the people your your clients and that a couple of things just sort of picking up on uh on what you had just mentioned with respect to the amount of the benefit so it is up to $200 a month.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

It it definitely didn't meet expectations in terms of what a lot of us thought it was it was it was going to be because it was very much touted as a mechanism to let people out of poverty. But the framework legislation is in place right so um we're not looking at needing to advocate for legislative change here in order to increase the amount of the benefit right that the the legislation's in place I think with some advocacy um we can you know hopefully uh convince the federal government to to increase that amount over time because it is it is as you mentioned it's just it's just grossly inadequate right now does it help it definitely helps when you know if your sole source of income is only $1400 or I think it's $1436 now a month but uh but it could be it could have a a much more significant impact if it uh responded adequately um I think the you know the an issue that I think you and I had had spoken about in the past with respect to the CDB was the access piece. And um I I just must be magnetic or something because I keep on coming back to the whole you know um legal representative issue and supported decision making but the access piece has been difficult for some people with intellectual disabilities um because of quite honestly just the same barrier that's in place there um similar barriers that are in place there when compared to accessing the DTC or accessing the RDSP right it's this whole notion of um if you cannot apply yourself independently right if you require any type of support CRA Service Canada has very little in place uh from my standpoint at least to uh to assist you with that application process now depending on where you live in what province or what territory you live in there may be legislation in place that uh provides for I guess I'm getting into supported decision making but provides that's fine and I don't mean to keep you away from it I just yeah uh you know that provides for supportive decision making so this isn't necessarily an issue but for folks here in let's say on in Ontario where we don't have any supported decision making legal frameworks in place people can't open an RDSP they can't renew the D their DTC they can't access the CDB if there are questions related to their contractual capacity right so so okay so let's dive into well let's wrap that one so Canada's ability it started up to 200 bucks a month it it feels like there anytime something new starts there's a period of disruption understand and it sounds like that's going okay there is opportunity for it to increase over time I would and and the other piece that I I think is worth mentioning is there's no clawback that in Ontario and I don't know that any provinces have a have clawed back because initially they were talking about that if if you're receiving ODSP as an example and you got a $200 benefit that they would claw that back from your ODSP or 100% of it right which was absurd.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

So I'm glad to see that didn't get any traction because early on I think it was it was a real concern. I think it was a real policy consideration at some point. So it's good to see we got away from that it's frustrating to me as somebody that does advocacy in this area where disability services is the the area I probably do most of this in there's no money. It's not the time economy's low or economy's good but it's not time at whatever it is. But at the same time when we need to spend military up our military spending from 1.35% to two percent and then to three and a half and five you can do that at a drop of a hat and I go we're not comparing apples and apples um but it's just incredibly frustrating and it really does sort of go back to this this view of societies priorize what's important to them. So if military spending is an existential issue for the country we can find the money uh and I think us in the disability community remembered need to keep that in mind as well. If they priorized disability services and supporting people who are vulnerable in our country it should get more profile. But we we choose where we invest our money we choose where we spend.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Yeah and you know the optimist in me will say that that the the you know that that profile has raised over the last 10 or 15 years.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

I would agree um it's nowhere near where we need it to be but I mean the country ratified the convention on the rights of persons with disabilities in 2010 it introduced the RDSP the Retro Disability Savings Plan in in in 2008 and it it passed the the Accessible Canada Act and in 2019 it introduced the Canada disability benefit uh a few years ago and you know these initiatives were initiated by different governments uh uh yeah across the political spectrum um so I you know I think I think overall we are moving in the right direction that's that's true and certain that's true and certainly in Ontario this government has invested uh pretty consistently uh as well so with that supported decision making so help help us help me understand that for simple context my son just turned 18 it's shocking to me that he can now go into a bank or a real estate office and say here I am I want to buy this or sign this or lease this and just pick up a pen and sign on the dotted line and the qualifying factor for him is that he's his he's turned 18 um and that's sad. If you have a disability uh it's not as simple always so what what's walk us walk us through this.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Sure. And you know I'll just try to give you some very clear examples without getting too too theoretical or or legal in nature and um and I think I've uh I've identified a few of them over the course of the last hour. But uh look we we start with the with the premise the the legal premise that everyone is presumed to be capable of making their own decisions at certain ages right so when it comes to to signing a contract or managing property as you alluded to that's age 18. So that's where the law starts right the law doesn't start by saying because you have intellectual disability you're incapable of making that decision. You got to presume the person's capable and then if there's a decision to be made and there's evidence to suggest that the person may not be capable that's when we start getting into the question of who can step in and make a decision for them. Right? So that that is just a very sort of high level description of what we call substitute decision making. It's black and white person's capable or not if they're not capable then they have a substitute decision maker steps into their shoes and makes a decision for them. What the law doesn't do in Ontario is recognize the fact that we all need um different levels of support when it comes to decision making some more than others right so for some people who may not be able to meet that test for capacity independently what other jurisdictions recognized is that they can implement a legal framework which allows people to rely on others for support right in the decision making process.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Right okay so for example form formally formally right so if legally legally recognize support right so to pick on my son's circumstance so if he turns 18 he wants to lease a car he could come back to me and go to people and have conversations about what he wants to do nothing wrong with that. Yeah but I hope he's doing that he's not doing any of it but this is all hypothetical I don't want to give many ideas um but in the circumstance where person has a disability and that's sort of an informal check-in and and then you sign and you're responsible or uh you can make that you can make that call you're uh in this circum in this circumstance you're there's the suggestion that you could formally set up those structures where people can consult with and uh and that wouldn't get in the explain it you're you're exactly like like so it's the same thing like you know your son comes to you and asks for some advice he can then take your advice or not and go back to the other party go back to the car dealership and sign the the paper.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Person with a disability can have those conversations as well but the other party right the bank the CRA the car dealer the healthcare practitioner may not think that they are then capable of executing on that right so they'll say well we we can't take direction from you we can't take direction from you because we don't think you meet this cognitive test of capacity and therefore somebody else has to make that decision for you. Right? What we're trying to say is we need a legal framework that recognizes the fact that that person with a disability is going out to get the support and that that support can be legally recognized. And this isn't this isn't um this isn't novel right like this isn't this hasn't existed for decades. It just hasn't existed here. And so like you know some some very practical examples of how this plays out in everyday life is that a person goes to the bank to open a bank account and they are not able to open that bank account right because the bank doesn't want to contract with them. And I'm not necessarily blaming the banks right because they're saying look how are we legally protected if you know like we're ex we are facing a degree of exposure perhaps uh they would argue by uh opening a bank account for someone who do they do not think is capable of doing so based on our legal constructs. And so we have no sort of legislat we don't have a law here that would support the banks or support the person in gaining that bank if okay so who who's doing it well? Well I I mean I think there are a number of jurisdictions here in Canada that have made a lot of progress over the last 20 or 30 years. I think there are a number of international uh jurisdictions as as well who have implemented supported decision making. So I was referenced the Representation Agreement Act out in British Columbia that's been in place for decades that you know essentially says um you know a person can rely on support from a trusted friend or family member who's able to interpret their will and preference. Right. Right? So they can interpret their will and preference they can provide that support opening the bank account's not an issue accessing the RDSP is not an issue applying for the DTC is not an issue because there's this legally recognized framework in place.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Um a number of other jurisdictions across Canada the UConn uh has made progress New Brunswick uh Nova Scotia you know um so it's just that for whatever reason here in Ontario we're not we're not moving there.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah I mentioned I was at a conference a year or so ago and there was a presentation from a group in Colombia and another South American country I I don't recall they had it in place too it was it were miles ahead of us um miles ahead of us and what's interesting is that for a number of the those jurisdictions and and quite in in addition to a number of I would say states down in the US they've relied on Canadian experts they've relied on some of our legal frameworks like the Representation Agreement Act to to build their legislation to develop their legislation right so um we've got these international communities. We've got a real opportunity here in Ontario to take some great ideas and some good frameworks and uh implement them in this province.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Absolutely you know we don't have to look too far.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

You know I think and there there are a number of people here in Ontario who've been who've been advocating for sports for years. The law commission went here one of them you're you're yeah we we've been doing that here and and you know we uh sort of we're we're at the table the law commission of Ontario um had a a four year project between I think it was sort of 2014 and 2018 where they study this area of law right um unfortunately I don't know that any real impactful recommendations in relation to supported decision making resulted from that from that study but a lot of the groundwork was done right so a lot of that groundwork's been done a lot of the legal analysis has been has been done like I said there are a lot of Canadian experts that um that have you know assisted other jurisdictions uh uh across the country and internationally in developing these legal frameworks so um I think the time is right here for Ontario especially because uh you know we've got this RDSP issue that is is coming to a head right um people are facing have been facing issues accessing RDSPs since they came about in 2008 if their legal capacity was being questioned right the federal government sort of temporarily plugged that gap um with uh by allowing for family members to act as plan holders but that that that legislation is coming to an end on December 31st of this year.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Oh okay so it's pretty urgent it's pretty urgent so the hope is that you know Ontario is working on something to ensure that um that eligibility for for RDSPs aren't impacted uh beyond this year okay we'll have to leave it there we've uh covered a lot of ground took some time um always good to catch up and chat about issues I'm sure we'll have you back and chat some more yeah I know it's always wonderful being here feel free to call anytime we'd love to continue the conversation yeah and thanks for the work that you're doing across uh the country and in the province and uh and it's uh great to be able to pick your brain and use your expertise and and share that with people. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Come from thanks Brad appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

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